Sunday, April 20, 2008

In Defense of Red Sonja #32...

I find myself amused that I feel the need to defend a comic that I was mostly indifferent to. But since another writer's work has painted a picture of the issue that I feel is manipulatory at best and that someone whose work as a critic I respect has been persuaded to ignore Red Sonja completely because of that review, I thought it fair to explain what this other critic failed to.

This is for you, dane, who said "I don't read Red Sonja, so I don't know why, um, NOT being raped and having your parents NOT die would make you evil, but going with that plotline, I'd like to see how much of the original Red Sonja exists". Rest assured - you DO get to see that.

This is for you, buttler, who said "I don't know who the heck that's supposed to be, but it's no more Sonja than it is, say, Wonder Woman. Which is to say, not at all.". No it isn't. But it isn't meant to be OUR Sonja.

And mostly, this is for kalinara, who has steered me clear on listening to one bad review in the past before. I hope that this may return the favor. This isn't the usual creative team. This isn't a usual storyline. And this is the very first "What If?" story the series has ever had since being revived at Dynamite. Go read Red Sonja #31 - it was a lot better.



Now, for those of you unfamiliar with the Red One, let me sum up.

Sonja was a tomboy peasant girl. Her entire family was killed by soldiers in the service of an evil god, imaginatively named The Dark God. Raped and left for dead, Sonja was visited by a goddess (mostly known as The Goddess) who promised to bless Sonja with supernatural warrior skills to aid her in a one-woman war against evil. Sonja would keep these gifts so long as she kept to an oath that she could not physically love any man who did not prove her better in battle.

Dynamite's Red Sonja series, separated firmly from the Conan mythos that inspired it, has centered upon Sonja's adventures as she gathered allies and fought the minions of The Dark One. But in Sonja's haste to stop The Dark One from being born into a human body, she accidentally fulfilled a prophecy that said that the death of a god in her plane would bring about the return of the Sorcerer/God Kulan Gath. Gath's evil proved to be even greater than the evils inflicted by The Dark One and Sonja gave her life to see him defeated.

For the last few issues, we have been treated to a number of one-shot stories as Sonja - now dead, but still apparently with a destiny ahead of her - is guided down the river Styx by a familiar ferryman who recounts the deeds of Sonja's life. In the most recent issue, #32, The Ferryman showed Sonja what her fate might have been had her family not died at the hands of The Dark One's soldiers.

In this "What If?" reality, Sonja and her father are able to fight off the soldiers. Sonja then receives a message from The Dark God himself, promising her blessings equivalent to the ones The Goddess granted Sonja. Nine years pass and Sonja is a warrior of great renown but with two significant differences. First, her costume is of much darker aspect; her chainmail is made of black metal instead of silver and she sports a metal torc with The Dark One's symbol. Second, this Sonja is not hampered by an oath of chastity; something we discover as Sonja is having her way with the King of Pah-Dishah after entering his service as a general.

Long time Sonja fans will note that this is in direct contrast to the original story in Marvel Feature: Red Sonja #1 by Roy Thomas. In that story, Sonja was hired on as a general by the King of Pah-Dishah, spurned his advances and eventually wound up killing the foolish king after he tried to force her into his harem.

Assassinating the king in his bed and now sole ruler of Pah-Dishah, Sonja turns toward increasing The Dark One's power and eliminating the competition posed by a new god: The Celestial One. Ironically, this is the same being - a despotic god of purity - whom Sonja, as a hero in her real life, fought against in the first story arc of the current Red Sonja series. This battle leads Sonja to fight against many of her allies from her true life, including the warrior bard Osin.

This is where the review by mallet begins, showing the rape of Osin. While he scans the panels showing how effective this Dark Sonja has become in using her sexuality as a weapon, mallet neatly leaves out the panels where Sonja explains just why she feels the need to have her way with this man and why she gave herself over to The Dark God.

I will quote from the text here. I apologize for not having a scan handy but my scanner is kaput.


*****


OSIN: But why? Why would you give allegiance to The Dark God?

SONJA: There are many reasons. But all can be tied into one word. Destiny. The Dark God's followers once tried to kill me. But they found themselves lying in a pool of their own blood. That was my trail. The God was testing me. I proved I was worthy of his blessing... and now I am here to carry out his will. You should be honored, Osin... Any other man would kill for this opportunity.

OSIN: You're insane, woman. You can kill me. Torture me. But I'll have no part in this madness.

SONJA: Fortunately, you have no choice. Suumaro says that you are the one. You cannot deny your destiny... or me.

OSIN: I told you... I... I'll have no part in this.

SONJA: Oh? And you believe you can resist? Your body betrays you, Osin.

OSIN: Damn you...



*****


What gets revealed in the following pages is that Sonja has been given the honor of becoming mother of The Dark God made flesh. In essence, Sonja's only reason for raping Osin is because a prophecy said that he was meant to father the Anti-Christ (or the Hyborian equivalent) with her as the mother. That doesn't make it any less icky but it does give Sonja with a motivation past "Well, she's evil - so she must be a slut." - a subtext that I believe was mistakenly (although not, I think, intentionally) implied by mallet's original article.

So the baby Sonja is killing? That's the Anti-Christ. And Sonja quickly forgets doing the will of The Dark God when she realizes that the baby IS trying to kill her and that her faithful wizard Suumaro, has been planning to double-cross her this whole time.

Again, I quote from the text, as Sonja is going into labor.


*****


SONJA: Summaro. It is time...

SUMMARO: Come. Sanctify this body. Bless this place with their blood!

SONJA: What? UNGH... What? What is this?

SUMMARO: Take of your mother's flesh as you will of the Earth! Baptize yourself in your mother's blood!

SMALL, CLAWED HANDS ARE SEEN TO PUSH FROM THE INSIDE OF SONJA'S STOMACH.

SONJA: No! Get out!

SONJA RIPS THE BABY FROM HER OWN WOMB.

SONJA: You... you tried to kill me!

SONJA RIPS THE BABY'S HEAD OFF WITH HER BARE HANDS.

SUMMARO: No!

SONJA: And you, traitor... you would have let me die?

AS SONJA TURNS HER BACK, THE BABY'S CORPSE BEGINS TO GLOW. EMERGING FROM THE GLOW IS KULAN GATH.

KULAN GATH: Yes.... Yes! Yes! The ultimate sacrifice has been made! The blood of a god has released me!

SONJA: What... are you?

KULAN GATH: I am Kulan Gath... and you are now my slave. I have planned this moment for ages.. and your life has been guided, designed for this moment.


*****


Again, this ironically mirrors the events of the story thus far. Sonja is still responsible for bringing about Kulan Gath's resurrection, but this time she is forced into his service immediately and is destined for a dark end at the hands of the few remaining followers of The Dark One left.

Sonja herself, once this view of the world where she turned evil is finished, comments on how it seems that the ends were exactly the same. Her family still wound up killed. She still became a warrior manipulated by the gods. And she still died after having accidentally inflicted great evil on the world. The Ferryman agrees, but notes that Sonja's actions in the real world lead to Gath's defeat and also saved her from the path of damnation she could have followed.



So in conclusion, what is there to say?

Are these comic panels horrific? Yes.

Do they depict a Red Sonja who is out of control and fully given over to the forces of darkness? Yes.

Are they typical of your average Red Sonja story? No. And thank goodness for that.

I just wanted to include this here for the fans who don't read Red Sonja who might be biased by an account written by someone who - though they are reviewing a comic that has never been promoted as anything other than a Mature Readers title - concludes their review with the words "Hey Kids! Comics!". As if Red Sonja were on the rack with The Batman Strikes.

40 comments:

  1. Really?
    The information I "omit" is that Red Sonja purposely chooses to rape a guy in order to give birth to the anti christ? Then when that turns out to be a BAD IDEA, she kills it?
    Yeah thats TOTALLY BETTER.
    Also: My post was titled "You know what I could use less of.." It was never meant to be a critical review. Much like this post http://zombiemallet.blogspot.com/2007/06/some-things-i-need-to-address.html I'm not really reviewing the comic I'm posting something that disgusted me on a visual level.
    I don't like rape in my comics that much and I really don't like graphic infatcide in my comics. Then to have them back to back is disgusting.
    Thats the purpose of the post.
    And for the record I'm a huge Sonja fan, I've tracked down the opening issues back in Conan the Barbarian. I've gotten almost all of the Dynamite series. I also love Conan, and Savage Sword of Conan. In fact I've posted about it on my site. But I don't remember Conan ripping the head off a baby on panel with a "Squoop" sound affect with blood shooting out.
    But I admit I haven't read all of them, so I could be wrong.

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  2. Sorry
    I forgot to add
    Mallet!
    To then end their but I figure you know it's me.

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  3. Re: Really?
    The information I "omit" is that Red Sonja purposely chooses to rape a guy in order to give birth to the anti christ? Then when that turns out to be a BAD IDEA, she kills it?
    Yeah thats TOTALLY BETTER.

    Yes, it is. Because the fact that the baby is a demonic creature born of Hell, capable of clawing it's way through human flesh somewhat mitigates the fact that it is a baby. You didn't mention that at all in your little rant.
    Had this been a regular, ordinary issue of Red Sonja I would share your disgust. However, since this is an alternate universe and this version of Sonja is an evil woman so far removed from her original concept (i.e. a woman who gave up all chance of a normal life in order to spare others from suffering as she had) I find it no more offensive than I do a story where - say - Batman is a blood-sucking vampire who feeds on the criminals he hunts in order to prolong his own damned existence.
    I don't like rape in my comics that much and I really don't like graphic infatcide in my comics. Then to have them back to back is disgusting.
    You don't like rape and yet you read Red Sonja? Isn't that a bit like saying that you don't like the idea of children losing their parents and then continuing to read Batman?
    And for the record I'm a huge Sonja fan, I've tracked down the opening issues back in Conan the Barbarian. I've gotten almost all of the Dynamite series. I also love Conan, and Savage Sword of Conan. In fact I've posted about it on my site. But I don't remember Conan ripping the head off a baby on panel with a "Squoop" sound affect with blood shooting out.
    Nor have I. But having read the original Robert Howard pulp stories which featured...
    * sexual assault by the undead (The Vale of Lost Women)
    * threat of rape by demons and other "weird pleasures" (The Scarlet Citadel)
    * S&M sexual assault and on-page rape by tentacle beastie (Xuthal of the Dusk)
    *semi-forced sex ala be my consort or die (Queen of the Black Coast)
    * forced sexual performance ala erotic dancing vs and attempted rape/cannibalism (Shadows in Zamboula)
    * forced S&M, nude bondage and heavy lesbian rape subtext (Red Nails)
    * pedophilia/forced nudity/rape (The Black Stranger)
    ... to say nothing of Howard's own description of Conan as "the damndest bastard you ever did see!" and his admission (reprinted in The Coming of Conan) that there were many Conan stories he imagined that he could not write for fear of offending modern audiences with the frank depiction of some of Conan's activities as a mercenary.
    As such, I can potentially see baby-killing being possible in a Hyborian story.

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  4. Re: Sorry
    Yes, it was fairly obvious.
    I respect you not wanting to read about rape and other unpleasant things in your comics. Trail back a few entries and you can see me ranting about Mighty Avengers being sold as an All Ages title despite it having some rather frank language.
    However, I have to wonder why - given that - you'd be reading the modern Conan and Red Sonja books which are definitely very violent and very sexual if such things make you uncomfortable.

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  5. I'm not sure where you get the idea that Mallet's manipulating his "review". Especially since I don't remember Mallet actually ever claiming that it was a review, rather than a few scans that grossed him out. But even if it IS a review:
    There is no requirement to post an entire story just to point out the "ew factor" of a rape and baby-beheading (demonic or no).
    Personally, I don't *care* what the story is behind it. I had imagined that the person doing the raping and baby-beheading wasn't "our Sonja" and I'm perfectly willing to buy that the story is plausible and interesting.
    However, it also contains a fairly graphic implied rape and the beheading of a baby (demonic or no). These are things I'd rather not see quite so explicitly. I'm not judging the person who wrote it or fans of the story, but for me, personally, that sort of thing is a deal-breaker REGARDLESS of the circumstances behind it. It could be the greatest story since Shakespeare, and I'll still put it back on the shelf.
    It's all well and good that you're explaining the context and I do appreciate it, but you're somewhat out of line in accusing Mallet of being manipulatory. He posted gross scans, pointed out that they were disgusting, and never once implied that the story was as simple as a couple of scans made them out to be.
    It's no different than any reactionary review, and there's nothing wrong with trusting the reader to realize that a couple of scans do not a story make.
    Mallet also, it must be noted, responded to MY review with important information, including the fact that this wasn't the regular writer and that previous one-shot writers were very good. This would indicate that he is NOT trying to manipulate anyone into disliking the comic but is instead concerned with fair treatment
    You don't like rape and yet you read Red Sonja? Isn't that a bit like saying that you don't like the idea of children losing their parents and then continuing to read Batman?
    Oh, and by the way? Mallet's selections of scans made me suspect that Red Sonja was probably not a comic that I would particularly like to read. That just confirmed it. Thanks! :-)

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  6. Re: Sorry
    Dude, you're being unfair. That's like telling me not to read Wonder Woman because I don't like such themes and the post-Crisis reboot covered them extensively.
    That's like telling someone who is put off by Cheesecake not to read ANY mainstream comics because they are definitely very cheesecakey.
    People like stuff for a lot of reasons, sometimes a little of an uncomfortable theme is overwhelmed by things that someone really loves. Until the creators go too far. Then, as a paying and loyal customer, you get to complain and "Well, it's ALWAYS been there" isn't a valid shutdown for those complaints, since if it had ALWAYS been so extreme the person wouldn't have been reading this long.
    Yeesh, man, think about the track you're taking here.

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  7. Re: Sorry
    I have thought about the track. And I still think there's a world of difference between complaining about the Cheesecake factor of certain comics and complaining about the violence and sex in a Conan/Red Sonja comic.
    Why? Because Cheesecake, by it's nature, is unnecessary. It isn't needed.
    However, the sword and sorcery genre, by nature, is very violent and very sexual. If you take away that element, it doesn't ring true. And I think mallet's complaints are akin are someone going to a Die Hard movie and then complaining about the violence and cursing.

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  8. It's all well and good that you're explaining the context and I do appreciate it, but you're somewhat out of line in accusing Mallet of being manipulatory. He posted gross scans, pointed out that they were disgusting, and never once implied that the story was as simple as a couple of scans made them out to be.
    I do not think, and I said this before, that Mallet meant for it to be manipulatory. But I can't think of any other word for how to describe a post where someone posts images of something horrific and then concludes by saying "Hey Kids! Comics!"
    I think that statement suggests a level of innocence to the source material that was never there and indeed suggests that the current creation team is about to have Archie and Betty start smoking pot and having sex in the bathroom. So to speak.
    Because while this was the first issue in the current series to actually depict a rape as it was occuring (male or female) and the death of a baby, there have been a lot of equally bloody moments in the current Red Sonja book as well as some equally sexual moments. And as someone who has been reading since Issue #0, I didn't see anything in this issue that was any more over-the-top than what came before.
    Oh, and by the way? Mallet's selections of scans made me suspect that Red Sonja was probably not a comic that I would particularly like to read. That just confirmed it. Thanks! :-)
    I didn't mean to suggest that the book was nothing but rape scene after rape scene. It isn't. Far from it. As I said a moment ago, they haven't ever depicted any kind of rape in the series until this issue. Even Sonja's rape in the retelling of her origin story in the current series was alluded to rather than being shown.
    My point is that Sonja's rape is the key part of her origin story just as the death of Batman's parents is the key part of his origin story. To change that point is to change the character and every story involving that character.
    So for someone to say that they are a Red Sonja fan but that they are uncomfortable with rape being depicted in comics (and make no mistake - even in the relatively more innocent days of 1970's marvel and the 1980's movie, they DID depict the rape back then)... well, that statement just rings as odd to me as if someone were to say they were a fan of Martin Scorsese but that they were uncomfortable with stories that cursing.
    Trust me. Issue #31 was a good one. I'll buy a copy and send if to you if you like - that way you lose nothing. Deal?

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  9. Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass. :-)

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  10. Things come in degrees. S&S wouldn't ring true if you stripped it of ALL the sex and ALL the violence, but Xena and Hercules for example did quite well without on-screen exploding demon baby heads.
    I wouldn't call that level necessary to the genre.
    Myself, that'd make me more likely to read it. But I'm a horror fan, and such violence is necessary to that genre. But most S&S tends to be less violent than a splatter film. It's perfectly valid for someone to enjoy Conan and Red Sonja then get to a panel like that and go "Wait, WAY too far for me."
    Everyone's got their limit, y'know.

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  11. As I said to Kali, I understand everyone having limits. But since the original complaint was about rape being depicted in Red Sonja and how - given how important the general concept of rape is to the main character - it just seemed to me to be silly to claim to be a Red Sonja fan and then object to a rape being depicted.
    I dunno. Maybe I'm jaded?

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  12. I'm going to give up on you now.
    We'll always have Judd.

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  13. I'll hope you mean that you're giving up on discussing this point with me since neither of us is going to change our minds and just agree to disagree and not that you're giving up on talking to me at all because of one little disagreement.

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  14. Dude, that's STILL RAPE, and Rape? Is bad and a horribly outdated trope, I don't care what your defense of it is.
    "You don't like rape and yet you read Red Sonja? Isn't that a bit like saying that you don't like the idea of children losing their parents and then continuing to read Batman?"
    How to best describe this? Oh, right!
    see more crazy cat pics

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  15. *face palms*
    I am NOT defending rape. I should think that is obvious.
    I am, however, saying that complaining about rape in Red Sonja is a bit like complaining that water is wet. I am, also, saying that it is disingenuous to post images from a Mature Rated comic that has never been marketed to children and then conclude your posting with "HEY KIDS! COMICS!"
    As icky as Sonja's rape as a teenager is, it has been part of her origin story in every single incarnation of the character and has been for 35 years. Like Batman and Spider-Man, Sonja is a heroine born of tragedy. Someone who chose to stop being a victim and to save others from suffering as they did.
    I suppose I should take it as a sign of progress that so much outrage is being raised over a man being raped in a comic book.
    Nevertheless, I do feel somewhat saddened that everyone is jumping on a bandwagon to slam me just because I believe in looking at the context of a story before going "EWWWW! No! Rape iz Bad! We cantz haz rapses in our comicz" and posting a LOL Catz image as a substitute for informed debate.

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  16. I highly doubt that there's always rape in every issue of Red Sonja just as I'm sure there isn't the death of Bruce Wayne's parents in every issue of Batman. Your comparison of the two in the above comment certainly made it seem as though you thought as much when it's not the case.
    And yes, I also understand you're looking at the context, but as others have said, it's looking at Red Sonja far too simplistically, reverting back to the Frank Miller Method of Writing Women, the Whore/Virgin thing.
    True, you don't really hear about this too often with women in the role of the men as the rapists, but methinks that hey, maybe, JUST maybe, a female character could actually be something more than either a whore or a victim. They certainly could have tried that angle in this story but nope, no, had to be EXTREMEEEEE in some way or another, hence the raping of a man and tearing a baby's head off.
    Plus, I just think that Lolcats image was just too funny.

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  17. Hey man, I know I'm late to the party here, but I just wanted to say thanks for clearing up the context for me. In the end, I could only comment on what I was presented without knowing much about Red Sonja.
    The rape and violence never really bothered me. Honestly, I've yet to find something in comics that "offends" me. It's ink on paper, it's fiction, and I'm a pretty jaded person with this stuff when it's not real. I have the feeling you're the same way.
    My big issue was that I felt that some writers need to reign in the gratuitous sex and violence when given a What If? story, and I felt this wasn't happening in this Red Sonja story. I wanted to see how Red Sonja's character was affected by this change of events, and you did show that to me. It's interesting because Sonja doesn't seem to be an inherently good person, but she is an aggressive person, so her environment seems direct her on how that aggression is purposefully used. On that level, this What If? story seems successful.
    Mallet's comment on "Hey kids! Comics!" still bugs me. He was probably doing some tongue-in-cheek blogging, but Red Sonja never was for the kiddos. She's female Conan, and horrible stuff happens in both of their worlds. I expect no less in either world, really.

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  18. But they did take a different route in this What If? story. She certainly wasn't a victim (parents didn't die initially, wasn't raped by raiders, killed a fuckload of people). And she wasn't a whore either. She had sex with a man as a systematic means to serving her god and creating the Anti-Christ. Nothing really whorish there; if she could have done it by drawing out his blood and mixing it in a potion, she'd do that just as easily. There's nothing Frank Miller-esque about this story.

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  19. This is true. The Evil Sonja was a femme fatale - not a whore. World of difference. Except in Frank Miller, where all of the femme fatales are technically women who have sex for money.

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  20. Thank you. I'm glad that at least one of the people I wrote this piece for got my point and found what I had to say helpful.
    It's ink on paper, it's fiction, and I'm a pretty jaded person with this stuff when it's not real. I have the feeling you're the same way.
    I'm a librarian and an actor who does Rocky Horror. I'm not easily offended, true. :)
    I wanted to see how Red Sonja's character was affected by this change of events, and you did show that to me. It's interesting because Sonja doesn't seem to be an inherently good person, but she is an aggressive person, so her environment seems direct her on how that aggression is purposefully used.
    Actually - to use D&D terms - Sonja seems to be a textbook case of Chaotic Good. She generally tries to be respectful of people and does the right thing, but has little use for convention or authority. Which would fit her role as an outlaw to most of Hyborian society and her oath to her goddess to prevent others from suffering as she did.
    Evil Sonja, by contrast, is Chaotic Evil. Same lack of respect for authority combined with a totally self-serving attitude.
    On that level, this What If? story seems successful.
    And that's pretty much the only level "What If" is ever successful.
    Seriously, can anyone tell me of a "What If?" story where things ever wound up better than in the original universe? Even "What if Gwen Stacy Lived?" ended with Peter Parker living the rest of his life as a fugitive because The Green Goblin's last action before Norman Osborne was cured of his Disassociative Personality Disorder was to send J. Jonah Jameson proof of Spider-Man's identity at a time when Peter was still wanted for murder.
    Mallet's comment on "Hey kids! Comics!" still bugs me. He was probably doing some tongue-in-cheek blogging, but Red Sonja never was for the kiddos. She's female Conan, and horrible stuff happens in both of their worlds. I expect no less in either world, really.
    I'm glad to see I wasn't alone in taking it that way, although haven talked with Mallet now, he clearly did mean for it to be ironic just as I meant for my statement regarding Batman's parents to be ironic.

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  21. context context context
    Can we all agree that senseless and arbitrary rape and baby murdering is worse (to whatever minimal degree it actually matters) than these things in the context of a story as a plot device (however tired and unoriginal)? As someone who doesn't read Red Sonja, seeing those panels out of context was pretty graphic and struck me as rather tasteless. However, with the context added of the story "requiring" these elements for a type of Rosemary's Baby homage/reimagining, it seems less tasteless and more just cliched and/or poorly executed.
    So no, obviously you dont have to post a 500 word setup to frame why a set of panels is visually disturbing to you, but a quick "Here's where Sonja rapes a guy because the Dark Lord told her it would result in an anti-christ. Now here's Sonja killing the demon-baby." would have been a little bit more even-handed. Even for a non-review critique. Its the difference between me showing some 85 year old a panel of Captain America being beaten on by some other character they've never heard of with or without explaining the Civil War situation. They'd probably not like seeing Cap beaten on either way, but at least they could understand it, even if not excuse it, by knowing the proper context.

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  22. Re: context context context
    Thank you for having said in two paragraphs what I tried (and obviously failed) to convey in about 20.

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  23. Re: context context context
    No prob. I tried to post something similar on Avalon's blog, but I dont know if it will make it past moderation. In case it doesn't, I'll repost the one controversial thing I can think of that might make it get censored on here so your readers can decide if it was over the line or not:
    It seems to me that a lot of the people jumping into this fight from the femininst perspective (and actively waiving that banner) are doing a lot more harm to the cause than those panels from Red Sonja ever could. I read WFA and PFP all the time, and the last thing I'm used to seeing is these ladies playing right into the stereotype that only feelings and emotions matter to women, and that they either don't care about context or are incapable of overriding their emotional response with their intellectual conclusions. And yet, with these panels that seems to be exactly what was happening. You bringing up context was seen as somehow a threat to the notion that people can feel however they want on a gut level about anything they want regardless of reason or rationality.
    It also seems to me that this in the context of a sort of literature review/critique does more to set back feminism than some creative team doing what they have to to get teenaged boys to shell out their lunch money on comics. Real women going all Oprah/Dr Phil over a comic makes me question intellectual gender parity more than does a picture of impossibly large and perky boobs or a 2 dimensional Madonna/whore character.
    Imagine a little role reversal for a sec: What if some random guy posted an out-of-context panel showing Wonder Woman snap Max Lord's neck and then proceeded to get indignant when someone else brought up the proper context. Would the same people still be on the same sides of the debate regarding the relevance of context? Sure rape is an overused trope, but so is the non-murdering hero having to face a decision between their principles and practicality, and yet that trope is a rock of ages that highlights a classic moral and philosophical debate that will probably never be settled to anyone's satisfaction. So if the problem was PURELY with the graphic visual depictions, then I fully agree it was a bit much. But if the problem was really that feminism is somehow undermined by the frequent used of rape, then I respectfully continue to disagree.
    The Rosemary's baby scenario will likely always involve rape of at least one party to the pregnancy. I'm not equating the severity of rape in the service of the anti-christ to the very much more realistic moral dilemma of taking lives to saves lives. Obviously, one is inordinately more likely to be applicable to real life. I just want to point out that both can be spun as morally repugnant by selectively dropping context, even while both remain morally questionable even within proper context. The key is to give that context up front, and let the reader decide.

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  24. Re: context context context
    Funny thing though, she did the EXACT same thing we were complaining about: dropped all the context. She refused to post the entire comment, then selectively quoted parts of it to make me look like an asshole.
    Yes, the irony was not lost on me.
    However, I don't have the time or the inclination to pick a fight with someone who won't even attempt to listen to reason. Feel free to link back here for the proof should you want to joust with her, though.

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  25. Re: context context context
    I think this thing has reached it's course. Time to move on, really.

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  26. Re: context context context
    Indeed. I've apparently already lost one on-line friend over one badly chosen analogy.

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  27. No, I meant that in a backing away from the crazy person way. You're telling me that all levels of violence are the same. You're using a major silencing tactic on my friends. You're using textbook troll behaviors at my friend's blog. You're using the "bury my opponent in words and half-truths" method of debate.
    Perhaps this began as a little disagreement. But it's grown into a divergence of moral principles. You're breaking two of the USAF core values and five of the Nine Noble Virtues. This isn't a matter of taste where we can agree we'll never agree. This is truly underhanded. This is communication obfuscation employed to defend a comic book.
    Here's looking at you for the last time as a friend, kid. I'll still watch you for WFA, but other than that have a nice life.

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  28. You're telling me that all levels of violence are the same.
    I didn't mean to say that when I compared (wrongly now, I admit) losing one's family to being raped. I see now why everyone was so upset by the way that could be read - but my intent was not to say that rape >=< being orphaned. In Sonja's case, such a comparison is redundant since both things happened to her. My intent was to say that while Sonja's background is dependent upon a violence incident (as is Batman's), the incident itself is not something that is repeated over and over. Rape is not a commonplace thing in the Red Sonja books and the way Mallet wrote their blog, it seemed to me that they were suggesting it was.
    I've talked with Mallet since then and we've come to understand what the other was saying.
    ou're using a major silencing tactic on my friends. You're using textbook troll behaviors at my friend's blog.
    If you're referring to Avalon, I only went there after I heard that she had written about me, tried to explain myself and found her to be completely unwilling to even give me a chance to explain myself. By her own words, she is unwilling to listen so I said I'd waste no time more time on her.
    Honestly, I feel unclean about the whole thing now. Especially since I had someone rise to my defense and point out the irony of how the woman who claimed that the context or a rape or baby murder wasn't important only to refuse to post his reply on her blog (which is her right) and then paraphrased from it while complaining about how horrible we all are without showing the original letter. The defender in question immediately went off - on his blog - on how men can't be raped.
    Nice response back to him, by the way.
    Look, I'd hate to see a good working relationship end over what basically amounts to extremists on either side of us were fighting after I misread one article and then had something I wrote misread.
    I'd like to think you know me well enough by now to know that I'm no knuckle-dragger. I'm about as much of a feminist as someone with a Y chromosome can be. And I know this is probably a waste of time because whatever else may be said about you, you're not one to change your mind easily.
    Still - foul as you claim to be - I've always found you to be fair. So I'm going to ask you one more time to look back on everything we've done together. The Green Lantern fandom. The Judd Winick fights. The Gail Simone lovefests.
    You're sure there's no chance of reconciliation, if not today, than someday?

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  29. In fairness, Avalon's Willow isn't always the fairest debater in the world, as she herself has admitted. Even though I've never posted anything disagreeing with her before (in fact I devoted 2 recent posts on my blog agreeing with her), she doesn't exactly strike me as a "check your baggage at the door" type of person. She has a bit of a "shoot first,ask questions later" attitude. And she displayed that with Matt, in my opinion. Maybe that's because she hadn't read his prior stuff and I had.
    That said, Matt, that Batman/Sonja analogy completely blew. I mean, the Post-Crisis Themiscirans in Wonder Woman have rape in their history, but I'd be pretty pissed if there were a rape in Wonder Woman. And this is from someone who generally agrees with you. But who doesn't in this case. If I were to be guaranteed to never see another rape/molestation in comics, male or female, I would throw a party. And while you were correct that Mallet didn't explain the full context of those panels (probably more for brevity than by design), I still say the panels scream "Dealbreaker!" to me. (That doesn't mean I might not pick up Red Sonja 1-31 or 33-whatever; it just means I won't pick up #32. If, say, Chuck Austen filled in on an issue of Gail Simone's WONDER WOMAN run, I'd still pick up the Gail issues.)
    However, I will have to take your word regarding Savage Sword, etc, as I have only read Thomas/Buscema 70's/80's mainstream Conan. Question: Am I to assume that the rating on this Sonja book is higher than the "Mighty Avengers" book you rightfully castigated a while back? I'm betting yes, but that has an effect on your argument.

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  30. That said, Matt, that Batman/Sonja analogy completely blew.
    I know. I realize that now. And again, I am sorry for that.
    And while you were correct that Mallet didn't explain the full context of those panels (probably more for brevity than by design), I still say the panels scream "Dealbreaker!" to me. (That doesn't mean I might not pick up Red Sonja 1-31 or 33-whatever; it just means I won't pick up #32. If, say, Chuck Austen filled in on an issue of Gail Simone's WONDER WOMAN run, I'd still pick up the Gail issues.)
    See, that was the point I was trying to make to kalinara. That is to say, that most of the rest of the issues of Red Sonja were good/great and that I wouldn't recommend writing off the whole series just because of one issue that was being done by a fill-in writer.
    However, I will have to take your word regarding Savage Sword, etc, as I have only read Thomas/Buscema 70's/80's mainstream Conan.
    Well, Dark Horse is doing reprints of the original "Savage Sword" comics, so now is a good time to give it a look-see. Particularly since the series - published in an black-and-white magazine size - is very rare and hard to find.
    But yes - a lot more violence, a bit more overt sexuality (Conan is allowed to give the tavern wenches coin for their company rather than buying drinks) and in some cases there's a bit of nudity in profile (i.e The Frost Giants Daughter) or near nudity (i.e. Vallejo-style garb that just barely covers the nipples of a female character while leaving said region defined). I'd say Savage Sword is about on par with the current Conan series, which is definitely aimed at mature readers.
    Question: Am I to assume that the rating on this Sonja book is higher than the "Mighty Avengers" book you rightfully castigated a while back? I'm betting yes, but that has an effect on your argument.
    Well, Sonja doesn't have an official rating (Dynamite doesn't rate their comics) but I always personally classified it as being "Mature" and put it up on the high shelf when I was working in a comic book store as has every comic shop I've been in in the last three years.

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  31. "Perhaps if I had said "Like going to a Woody Allen movie and then complaining that it's full of New Yorkers?""
    Or you could have said "Like listening to a Ben Folds album and complaining that there's too much piano".
    That one always works for me.

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  32. Re: context context context
    "I've apparently already lost one on-line friend over one badly chosen analogy."
    Actually, political/agenda-driven absolutists don't have friedns. They have supports of their views and beliefs (aka "yes men" and psychophants) and enemies.
    You crossed the line from the former to the latter, when you refused to accept what she told you as 100% truth and stuck by your own feelings and thoughts.
    I can see you thought of them as a friend, but make no mistake, that feeling was never reciprocated. You were tolerated as a source of validation that they were right. Once you could not provide that, your usefulness was over and you became the enemy. It was then, that the true colors were shown and the veneer of friendship was lifted.
    I know you still probably feel bad about this, but such a confrontation and ending was inevitable. Such as it always is and will be, with rigid idealogues.

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  33. Needs more cowbell!
    I'm sorry. I just had to.

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  34. Re: context context context
    First of all, you're a little late to the party.
    Secondly, learn to spell.
    Thirdly, I don't know who these "idealogues" you're talking about are. Ragnell has always been fair to me, has always been respectful of me and always been willing to listen until this incident. Even now, having talked, things are at a "we'll see how it goes" point, which I think is fair given what I said. I understand her being upset by what she thought I said and how she - and many others - took it the way it was taken.
    I think my record bares me out as being an enlightened feminist thinker and I hope my actions in the future will acquit me of one poorly chosen analogy.
    Finally, understand this now. You are not welcome on my blog. And while Ragnell may have turned away from me as a person, that has not changed my feelings on our mutual causes one iota. I am not, nor will I ever be, on your side no matter how many bad things - warranted or not - Ragnell or anyone else ever say about me.
    Because the comic industry is flawed. It is biased. And change is coming whether you like it or not.

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  35. I understand (that was also me directly above). You had a fever, and that was the only prescription.

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  36. Re: context context context
    If it means anything, Matt, Ragnell will probably get over it. After all, you're not exactly Mad Thinker Scott, no matter what Avalon's Willow may say. After a while it may be like it never happened.
    By by the way, did you know that "trilobyte in question" was one of my rejected blogger names?
    And yes, anonymousmr, there are some more hardcore feminist bloggers who may fall into the "absolutes" trap, but Ragnell and especially her sidekick Kalinara are not among them. They are generally fair and reasonable to me as well. Plus, they're both Green Lantern fans.

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  37. This has gone on for too long already. Thread is frozen.

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